The shots heard around the world. (WARNING) [Archive]

Freaky_Angelus

04-12-2010, 08:45 PM

Well I do have the hobby of making pictures and omg how I wish to own such a lens on my camera so I do know more about the hardware in this case, but still...

You 'see' a RPG and simply.. OH YES IT IS ONE.. without ever confirming it again. To my knowledge it is a must within the dutch army to confirm twice on such events. You 'see' something, you must confirm again. They never did that nor was there 1 confirmation ever again on the entire incident.

I was first like.. Well it looks weird and what is he carrying when the co-pilot went 'he is carrying a rpg'... sorry... what? Then without ever checking it, during his PICTURE of the chopper that he took around the corner, they went, 'they are aiming at us' only followed to open fire. Yes he is aiming a photo-camera, but you never checked what he has.. not once...

I can understand you shoot first to make sure you stay alive, I sure understand that, but you see 8 people standing around each other and you simply open fire without 1 single check on what you believe you saw? Those pilots, not even the second chopper shooting that was just providing assistance, need to be trialled for murder. They did not check, not even confirmed their OWN sights and then kept shooting an entire city all based on 1 sighting that was wrong from the start. The entire part that followed after was all bloodshed based on a very wrong assumption that could been avoided. Even without saying 'whoops' they kept going on as if nothing wrong had happened.. you shoot through that focused lens and NEVER did they see they were wrong? Not believing that ever.

The cameralens is posted below.. well.. a lens that is equal.. check the time index and you can understand both views.. it is one hell of an object, but to shoot at one without EVER checking your view.

I can ever see the white stripes in the lens.. Only canon has that color setup on their lenses, but yes.. you gotta know that to recognize this type of lens...

http://www.fotoapparatuur.nl/Artikelen/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/canonZOOM-LENS-EF-70-200mm-f2.8-L-IS-II-USM-FRT_rotated.jpg

Clone

04-12-2010, 09:06 PM

Wow that was what a 15 kill streak form the original 7 kill streak Chopper Gunner. Nice!

i disagree with you all. The people had some type of rifle, which is in your mind when now you see what could be some type of rpg (could be a camera, could be rpg idk, idc---that's not gong to be my focus). Also hiding behind a building probably doesn't help when you're friends have slings with that could look like a gun. But you're all saying that you wouldn't have opened fire when you're fired upon every day by people who look like civilians until some of your friends are already dead? I know i would've blew them apart too, and I am appalled by you're lack of support for our troops. And to say it's "murder"? F*** you, man-slaughter at most.

Twin Towers After Attack:
http://www.pulitzer.org/imported-data/year/2002/breaking-news-photography/works/attack_8.jpg

http://realtybs.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/american-flag.jpg

---Here's to freedom to not have to live in fear of another terrorist attack.

Cosmic_Shame

04-12-2010, 09:37 PM

well were all fucked cuz the russians just shot down a plane with the entire Polish president and most his cabinet
http://crosscut.com/blog/crosscut/19438/

Crux

04-13-2010, 12:28 AM

Wow that was what a 15 kill streak form the original 7 kill streak Chopper Gunner. Nice!

i disagree with you all. The people had some type of rifle, which is in your mind when now you see what could be some type of rpg (could be a camera, could be rpg idk, idc---that's not gong to be my focus). Also hiding behind a building probably doesn't help when you're friends have slings with that could look like a gun. But you're all saying that you wouldn't have opened fire when you're fired upon every day by people who look like civilians until some of your friends are already dead? I know i would've blew them apart too, and I am appalled by you're lack of support for our troops. And to say it's "murder"? F*** you, man-slaughter at most.

---Here's to freedom to not have to live in fear of another terrorist attack.

My god you are retarded. You can't seriously try to justify opening fire on a group of civilians, let alone one with 2 children.

SWI7CH

04-13-2010, 12:43 AM

Wow clone u really are messed up...

Ramanag

04-13-2010, 01:51 AM

well were all fucked cuz the russians just shot down a plane with the entire Polish president and most his cabinet
http://crosscut.com/blog/crosscut/19438/

I'm assuming that's a joke. They haven't recovered the black box yet, to my knowledge, but I'm pretty sure they have the radio communications from the tower saying, effectively, "Hey, the weather sucks here. Land somewhere else."

Also, Clone hate to dogpile on here, but the easiest way to not live in fear of terrorist attacks is... to not live in fear of terrorist attacks.

Freaky_Angelus

04-13-2010, 05:47 AM

Apart from disagreeing on the rest clone I'll simply say that I never said I don't understand why they made the assumptions.

No question on what goes on in the minds of soldiers, but...

You can not and must not use events that passed every time you need to 'justify' a situation. It is why the entire war is under so much discussion as facts are not used and the same 9/11 argument is getting disrespectful to those that actually died then. Do understand that despite being European I saw the second plane fly in and that sure made a scar in my life too.

My biggest problem with this lies in the fact they ignored their job, their procedures and what they learned in basic training. Validate ANY sighting.

Even if they would have done everything as they did now, a simple check before firing if ALL persons present are the 2 with guns and the third with the 'rpg', which you seriously can not say was an rpg if you check at the frames I gave, would show that there was no confirmation on the 2 at the point of firing and hell... pay attention and you would see that it is a weird object he is looking IN TO. Making a picture woulda been better doing it in plane sight to avoid this whole catastrophe, but it still does not justify it.

The part afterwards is ridiculous.. We now open fire on people that try to help people shot? They actually look at the chopper when they are trying to bring someone away.. Considering the amount of bullets I would guess a doctor.. So now we fire at medics.

Pretty sure parts of the Geneva convention are infringed there, but still, people try to justify it. This is stupidity, lack of respect and straight out murdering people. Not just playing it as a video game, they lacked any of the procedures and congrats on even hitting children in this all..

Collateral means someone unintended gets hurt as well.. not slaughtering so many based on 2 AK47's and an RPG, all three I do not see being confirmed once.. If you fight the war with these numbers it is called genocide in the rest of the world.

Clone

04-13-2010, 06:41 AM

You know it probably was a camera, looked like it to me too. I'm just saying you see guns, and now something is aiming at you while he's ducked behind a building. Looks like a probable cause to engage to me. Should they have checked a second time? Probably. But you know what, I'd rather civs be dead than our soldiers.

----Freaky if you look I said nothing about the other two, only the first. Yes firing on wounded is never good, and that is murder because the threat is already eliminated. And the people helping, was wrong too because they didn't see any weapons and ground forces couldn't gone in and surrounded them easily. I wouldn't justify that attack, only the first. In which the only hurt/killed was adult males. (Who I would say fit the description of possible Al Qaeda, except there is no description because they look like everybody else, they don't have any type of uniform.) And as far as "using what happened to justify this" I wasn't. I believe i only used the fact that they are fried upon by people thought to be civs everyday. I included the picture because the lack of support seems to me that you have all forgotten why we are there in the first place.

----And here's where I say, "Bunch of damn democrats". But I'm not retarded. I respect people's opinions. Something some of you all need to learn how to do. And too consider myself a deomcrat but am very conservative as well. (That's just for those of whom wrote me off as a hillbilly republican who sits on my porch in the middle of the woods with a 12 gauge).

---And no crux. God isn't retarded either.

Clone

04-13-2010, 07:07 AM

Also, Clone hate to dogpile on here, but the easiest way to not live in fear of terrorist attacks is... to not live in fear of terrorist attacks.

I'm not sure if i understand you're logic. I know you're not a douche so I'd like to have this conversation with you. Though it's more than likely just a "I meant..." in which I'm going to say "I see." And than either agree or disagree, but not post a counter because I'd like to have a conversation, not an argument. :amuse:

Brains

04-13-2010, 07:29 AM

so what about them firing !!3!! hellfire missiles into the building, clone?
I can understand opening fire on the first group of men because of the supposed RPG but killing the 2nd wave who came to help the wounded (I guess logic here would be that they could have gone back and taddled on the US soldiers thus causing even more political problems so they tried to avoid that situation by eliminating everyone) but once those 3 guys went into that building (well 2 guys went in, 1 guy was walking in when he go disintegrated by the 1st hellfire missile), couldn't they just have surrounded the building with the many abrams TANKS they had and countless foot patrol? nahhh, they chose to just bring the sucker down. I didn't even know they had authority to use hellfire missiles in solicited occurrences like that. don't get me wrong, I'm all for trying to protect ones self, but at that point, they were just using nukes to kill ants. wayyyyy unnecessary.

but anyways, how would footage like that even get out? I know everything is recorded now a days for tactical analysis for future procedures but things like that aren't supposed to be released. someone inside either gave the footage to someone to go public with it or someone hacked into where it's stored. either way, they have some splainin' to do. just like a few weeks ago when several iraqi hackers hacked into a UAV that was doing recon on them and were able to see what the army saw from the mounted cameras.

Clone

04-13-2010, 07:56 AM

I never said anything about that either. But since you want to discuss that too, I think one would have been sufficiant before sending in ground forces. (They said the heard gunshots, but who knows. I didn't hear anything, but I wasn't standing on the roof.) But yes, I agree ground forces could've handled it nicely. They were trained to clear out building.

----Also sounds like you are going into conspiracy theories. I think there could ver well be a Russian spy within the US forces giving out info to the Iraqis. Why Russian? Becuase the cold war isn't over, both Russia and US just realize that going to war with eachoter would never end. Also this whole thing is about pollitics, and Russia wants them to be Communist just as much as we want them to be Democratic.

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 08:31 AM

I'm assuming that's a joke. They haven't recovered the black box yet, to my knowledge, but I'm pretty sure they have the radio communications from the tower saying, effectively, "Hey, the weather sucks here. Land somewhere else."

Also, Clone hate to dogpile on here, but the easiest way to not live in fear of terrorist attacks is... to not live in fear of terrorist attacks.

well yeah i was kinda joking, but if the russians did shoot them down, which they could have cuz they dont give a shit what they do, it could be very possible

Ramanag

04-13-2010, 08:56 AM

Am I the only one who thinks it was a soldier who had access to the information and thought "This is wrong, people need to know about this"
who released the footage?

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 08:57 AM

i dont really agree with Clones choices of words but i will say this war is war and is rarely justifiable. Honestly u guys need to think about it, sure 15 people were killed and 2 children were injured by mistake or not who knows, WHO Cares. Its not our business what they do over there cuz if u were in the same situation and u were trained to kill like the military u would do the same thing.

I know that 15 people died 2 children sad sure but shit we dropped atomic bombs on the japanese that vaporized over 30,000 people instantly and killed over 250,000 people come on u think that was justifiable

ANother look at the bombing of Dresden in WW2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
the united states wanted to try out there new fire bombs so what they do, the bombed the shit out of a civilian city, why cuz they were in a fucking war and they had to see how there bombs worked, IS THAT JUSTIFIABLE, no and niether is the 25,000 german people who died overnight

So guys get real 15 fucking people get real, we are in a war, WHO GIVES A SHIT

this is my honest opinion, i support the troops even though i think it is a bull shit war, but i also am not blind enough to realize the fact that the war is gonna kill people and proabably alot of civilians
If someone goes and looks up right now Taliban Forces killed vs Iraqi civilians killed im almost sure of it they are in numbers somewhat close, cuz if u didnt know whe we first went into iraq and they were showing the footage of Baghdad getting bombed to fuck, which i saw cuz it was on TV, how many civilians were killed those nights my guess OVER 15

Ramanag

04-13-2010, 09:43 AM

For the record, the Taliban forces are fighting in Afghanistan.

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 09:51 AM

For the record, the Taliban forces are fighting in Afghanistan.

there in iraq 2 according to google. But whatever (iraq version of terrorists) , im trying to get a point across. That 15 people is nothing compared to over 30,000 people being incinerated by an atomic bomb instantly.

I will say this at least the USA has balls to shoot, and in that video he had to have confirmation to shoot, when the USA loses its balls to shoot first im getting the fuck out of here

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 09:56 AM

but political discussions are bad news on forums, this should be locked up. Thats the main reason why i quit my old clan, and i think freaky did as well. One fucknut posted obama hating things every day, im a republican most the time so i got it but shit got fucking annoying after a while, i would lock it up and avoid political discussions further on, if u got somethin to say politically say it to them via steam and avoid a long drawn out discussion of bull shit, because you cant change peoples minds about what they think

Brains

04-13-2010, 10:15 AM

sorry cosmic but last time I checked, 15 ordinary, out of place, "soldiers" and 2 kids isn't a threat to anyone. why don't they have that chopper fly over a crowded hotzone and open fire? those dudes in the chopper were pretty much in a DESERTED shithole. there were like more US soldiers there than civs....those guys were just looking to blow some shit up. I'd rather have those dudes go to were the actual war is goin on, the freaking front lines, and go unleash all the damn hellfire missiles and bullets you want. sure maybe we don't know WHY they were just patrolling that particular block in the city but based on that video alone, it was unjustified. it doesn't matter that they killed 15 ppl, it's that they did it without confirmation. general rule for US soldiers is to not fire unless fired upon. even at war....(those guys weren't at war, they were on a joyride just looking to pick a fight with enemies that couldn't fight back). also, even at war, they still must get CONFIRMATION to fire/kill/attack. not only did they not CONFIRM an RPG, they barely described the situation to whoever job it was to confirm attack actions. once the first wave were killed, then all hell broke loose. "they have a van coming, they are grabbing the bodies, they are picking up weapons, they are trying to hide, they are up to no good"...wtf...they had 2 abrams tanks like less than a couple blocks away...just roll up one of those bastards into the area and those civs would have just gone running. and everyone in the video sounded like they were 20 yrs old. were are the commanding officers?? you know, people who have been doing that shit for 20+ years. not just some kids looking to flex some muscle. I am totally up for just laying waste to enemies who are a threat, do whatever you gotta do to get the kill, but those weren't enemies, they were just civs with "guns" and possibly a camera. this is why the government spends so much money developing new technology to be able to actually SEE the damn battlefield. to prevent retarded things like this from happening.

Brains

04-13-2010, 10:46 AM

okay, taking a step back from all this, I can see it's a touchy subject :D

let's just lay this thread to rest and just see how it plays out in the news.

:D

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 11:16 AM

okay, taking a step back from all this, I can see it's a touchy subject :D

let's just lay this thread to rest and just see how it plays out in the news.

:D

you see what i mean hahaha, cuz i completely dissagree with the statement u said cuz probably over 3,000 iraqi citizens died on the first night of bombings of baghdad, but i cant confirm that but if u watched on television the bombing it was intense. Im just saying war is WAR civilians are gonna die, the dudes who drop bombs know they are gonna kill people even though they cant see them,

this guy in the video u posted has probably got the order to kill anything that moves dude, we dont know where not there, so u can believe whatever people post on youtube or what is probably the real facts of it, SOLDIERS ARE ORDERED TO KILL

but yeah its a touchy subject and this kind of stuff shouldnt be posted on a gaming forum imo cuz as u can see i have an opinion, and u have an opinion, and u posting that 15 people died does not change my opinion because people dies dude cuz its war doesnt matter if its civilian or military personel

but dont get me wrong, i really like political discussions, but as i mentioned before its not meant for a forum for gaming because as u can see from the previous posts how quickly it gets out of hand

Clone

04-13-2010, 02:17 PM

Brains

04-13-2010, 02:55 PM

I just posted it because it was a real life chopper gunner situation (like they have in BC2 and MW2). the news stations even said that the soldiers acted like they were playing a video game, just killing at will. didn't really realize that it would turn into a discussion on whether killing is ethical :D haha

but anywho, being a chopper gunner is fun in video games :D

Freaky_Angelus

04-13-2010, 03:54 PM

Hehe Cosmic is right on political discussion not being so good for the forums health, any fora for that matter..

But... I think this conv went pretty well. I also believe everybody in here is agreeing more then we seem to notice as we are falling over single phrases and choices of words instead of really profound views.

Clone

04-13-2010, 04:15 PM

didn't really realize that it would turn into a discussion on whether killing is ethical :D haha

Well, damn brains. It's not rather killing is ethical. It's about rather or not these killings here are justified. The first set was, the second wasn't. And One hellfire would have been enough. Were you not paying attention?

---Just for a Tag:

Killing is always ethical if there is probable cause for a threat. (That's how law explains how killing is justified anyway.) And the first there was a threat, the rest no.

Cosmic_Shame

04-13-2010, 04:48 PM

Well, damn brains. It's not rather killing is ethical. It's about rather or not these killings here are justified. The first set was, the second wasn't. And One hellfire would have been enough. Were you not paying attention?

---Just for a Tag:

Killing is always ethical if there is probable cause for a threat. (That's how law explains how killing is justified anyway.) And the first there was a threat, the rest no.

we got to drop it buddy, ur continuing the process of bashing and smashing. U got ur idea out, brains got his, freaky got his, i got mine as well, ease up

klossi

04-14-2010, 04:03 AM

interesting read. i had to facepalm quite often though.

Brains

04-14-2010, 07:18 AM

we got to drop it buddy, ur continuing the process of bashing and smashing. U got ur idea out, brains got his, freaky got his, i got mine as well, ease up

lol thanks. glad you said it and not me :D clone seems to be after me! I better go and hide before he attacks me :D

Clone

04-14-2010, 07:56 AM

lol thanks. glad you said it and not me :D clone seems to be after me! I better go and hide before he attacks me :D

I only counterattack.

But yeah I'm sorry; that was bad. You just don't know ow much it pisses me off to say something like "didn't really realize that it would turn into a discussion on whether killing is ethical."

Brains

04-14-2010, 09:14 AM

well how does that piss you off ?

It's a statement saying that I only posted the link to the video with the intensions of it showing a real life chopper gunner scenario. I've used the chopper gunner in MW2 and BC2 so many times, and using it in real life is exactly the same as in game. that's the only thing I wanted to show. I didn't really think that the fact that the dude was killing people would be what people would focus on when this is a video game forum on a thread that said, look it's a real chopper gunner like the ones we use in our video games. that statement I made wasn't really to attack you or anyone. I just thought that people would focus on the chopper gunner and his HUD more than why is he killing people. but ehh, that's what happens when people only have text and no audio to base how a person is actually saying the statement.

Ramanag

04-14-2010, 10:03 AM

Brains

04-14-2010, 10:54 AM

But, if it were MW2, then the hostiles would've had red rectangles around them... unless, of course, they all took cold blooded (that's the right one, right?) [/Bad Joke]

In all seriousness, though, that never occurred to me, but you're right, it really does blur the line a bit there.

you know something's up when everyone on the enemy team has cold blooded! I usually hate it when I respawn into my stinger class with cold blooded then spawn right next to someone who doesn't have cold blooded...so the people in the air support just shoot at my teammate and end up killing me because of danger close pro while I'm trying to bring the sucker down :(

Cosmic_Shame

04-14-2010, 11:00 AM

ugh derp derp derp derp derp derp ugh balls balls balls balls

dis one is ova

Clone

04-14-2010, 03:04 PM

No, what I meant was this was a disscusion on rather or not the killings were "murder". With posts from you as well with an argument saying how it was. And than you go and say something like taht, which was never the argument anywhere, and I hope it never would be considering everydoy should think war is wrong, but killing in it to protect one's self (when they have probable cause of being in danger) and their country is always ethical even the war may not be.

But whatever moving on.

Freaky_Angelus

04-14-2010, 05:33 PM

mur?der (m?rdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.

Sorry.. but if you don't understand how without confirmation opening fire on civilians can cause a discussion with it being called 'murder' then holy crap dude...

stewlounse

04-14-2010, 05:49 PM

They were casually walking down the street, KNOWING that apaches were hovering, watching them... seriously wtf. This is wrong and everyone knows it. They were extremely trigger happy, just listen to them!

Fox news tried to sway the opinion on tv today..it was a poor attempt.

In reference to Clone's pics... There has been an unbelievable amount of support and evidence accumulated over the last 10 years to open a new 9/11 investigation due to our government's allowing it to happen, maybe more. The research will lead you to realize that the truth has not been told. I know this is a touchy topic for some but this is just one of the many false flag attacks that has happened to this country. Lots of people are still too close-minded to even consider it...these people account for a large chunk in our population that has led to the government's having more control over us than ever intended. People need to ask questions, don't believe what's on the news in your face every day.

Tiger

04-14-2010, 06:17 PM

lol politics

stewlounse

04-14-2010, 06:30 PM

Muchhhhhhhhhhh more than politics...

Fenrir

04-14-2010, 06:44 PM

There is a bigger issue here than the ethics of war.

We can debate to no end what is right and what is wrong, what constitutes self-defense versus wanton slaughter.. there's no clear definition. You can always come up with an 'exception to the rule' and argue it, it seems. I think this was very unnecessary, tragic, and a horrible mistake that is a consequence of war and the mentality soldiers have in a war.

I am against the war for many reasons (to remain undisclosed to keep this civil), but the bigger issue is that THIS HAD TO BE LEAKED TWO YEARS AFTER IT HAPPENED. This is MAJOR NEWS, it happened in 2007, and we are JUST NOW FINDING OUT ABOUT IT. Even the day it was leaked, most of the major news networks were incredibly slow (reluctant, perhaps?) to air the story. Al-Jazeera was the first of the day, CNN and others were hours behind.

I think there's a spectrum of trust to news organizations and the government in general - and while I'm not quite at the 'omg wake up sheeple everything is a lie put on your tinfoil hats' phase yet... things like this definitely cast a lot of doubt into my mind.

Cosmic_Shame

04-14-2010, 06:57 PM

yeah but shit from vietnam and WW2 are being leaked now and that shit has been under wraps for over 60 years some of it about atrocities that the US government did. I mean come on the united states commited genocide to the native americans with small pox blankets dude were fucked up and 15 people honestly u guys need to lighten up, its a war, think before u guys keep posting, i know its wrong but shit man there is a million things worse than 15 people dieing from a heli

i want u guys to look at this battle, this is a mindset of the American military against the Japanese in WW2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Marianas_Turkey_Shoot

turkey shoot, honestly think about the name of that

u guys need to lighten up and realize that 15 people is nothing, although sad and unfortunate, 1000s of people in the USA get murdered daily

stewlounse

04-14-2010, 07:15 PM

And why did this war start?

Cosmic_Shame

04-14-2010, 07:21 PM

And why did this war start?

oh i know, i think that this war is bull shit 2 dont get me wrong, but u guys are talking about ethical, and war is never ethical and it never can be. im just saying its 15 people and the media is got liberals foots so far up there ass all the can do is say that its bad, obviously these guys were flyin by, they shot the shit with one another as they were killing civilians, im trying to say this shit has happened before a million times throughout history its wrong i agree but its nothing to sit here and argue about whats ethical and whats not

theres gonna be more and more of this shit brought to the public dont eat the shit up thats all im sayin

netwalker

04-14-2010, 07:22 PM

Just thought I'd get in on the conversation and throw my two cents on to the board.

My first comment will be about the identification of the weapons. See my problem with the whole incident is that anyone with military training should be able to quickly recognize that the cameras were not RPGs. Sure you can say mistakes happen in war but what I am more concerned with is the clear murder of the unarmed individuals as if they were animals. Namely the nine or ten guys that had nothing in their hands. These were completely unarmed civilians. Think about that for a second. Now, try to remove the racism and national pride that your media and government have indoctrinated you with and think about the fact that these people are human goddamn beings going about their daily lives and then suddenly getting cut in half from the sky.

All for what? To take out 'terrorists?' Who decided these people were terrorists? Did the chopper pilot know these people personally? What if the one guy with an AK-47 was just carrying personal protection against a military presence that illegally invaded his country based on lies (9-11 and WMDs) and started killing everyone? Over one million Iraqis have been killed since the war began. It borders on genocide.

So put yourself in an Iraqi citizen's position for a second. What if a foreign military force invaded the U.S. in an attempt to overthrow our government? I know a lot of good patriots that would take up arms to defend this nation if some foreign country was threatening their way of life. AND IT WOULD BE JUSTIFIABLE. One man's patriot is another man's terrorist.

To see how true that last statement is you simply have to look at what our media does to anyone who is outspoken on the Constitution or patriotism. They are labeled right wing extremists, domestic terrorists, kooks... the list goes on and on ad nauseum. True patriots are demonized because the media understands how powerful the Constitution is and they also understand that ideas are bulletproof. But you're not supposed to think for yourself! You're supposed to be a good little slave and sit here while the media downloads what you should believe. YouTube- System Of A Down - Boom! #04.

Haven't you heard? You're supposed to care what Tiger Woods' pecker is doing and who got voted off Dancing With the Stars last night!

Back to the video: And then there is the van that pulls up and starts attempting to render aid to the people. I can't even describe how evil shooting these people and their children is. It is a war crime to shoot a medic under the Geneva Convention. While the people rendering aid aren't specifically medics it is morally repugnant to me.

So at this point they have destroyed the people and disabled the van, and then they joke about just having killed children (the children didn't actually die, but the soldiers thought they had killed them.) "Right through the windshield!" the gunner said--as if it's some sort of game. "That's what you get when you bring kids to the battlefield," or something along those lines. It's a total emotional disconnection from what has just happened. Distinguishing lives as if they were ants or cock roaches... it disgusts me on a deep level.

"But you're all saying that you wouldn't have opened fire when you're fired upon every day by people who look like civilians until some of your friends are already dead? I know i would've blew them apart too, and I am appalled by you're lack of support for our troops. And to say it's "murder"? F*** you, man-slaughter at most."

To buy this, you have to believe the official government conpiracy theory that was immediately pushed in the media about 9-11 that "19 cavemen hijacked planes and flew them into buildings" and that there was nothing we could do to stop it, even though we had several countries telling us that a terrorist attack was imminent--JUST LIKE PEARL HARBOR, which, yep you guessed it, got us in to WWII! (Please Google it for yourself. For the lazies: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html) I could go on and on about why 9-11 does not add up; Stewlounse touched on it a little.

Regardless if you believe the official conspiracy theory or not, 911 was NOT THE REASON WE INVADED IRAQ. The reason we invaded Iraq was over Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs). THAT OUT GOVERNMENT LIED ABOUT. Again, go back to my recent analogy. What if a foreign country made up some reason to invade the US and it turned out to be a complete lie to rape the resources that we hoarde?

Now, about the plane crash that happened recently. I have not taken a position on whether it happened as we've heard or not but interesting pieces of information are coming out about it. Like the fact that the day before the crash, Poland moved to devalue their currency and then the very next day the president and other important leaders in the government conveniently die in a plane crash. Sound fishy to anyone else?

http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/04/09/polish-central-bank-pulls-trigger-to-weaken-zloty/

Do your own research. Think for yourself, because if you let the talking box dictate your beliefs, you'll be just another one of the mindless zombies walking around buying things you do not need.

Sorry for the long post and semi-rant.

Ramanag

04-14-2010, 08:33 PM

Sorry for the long post and semi-rant.

Semi?

Clone

04-14-2010, 09:01 PM

Hey, don't right me off as some idiot who believes everything posted in the media. I've read a lot of the conspiracy theories and some of them are quite convincing to be truthful. Also I to know for a fact that the people who hijacked the planes took just enough classes to learn how to fly a plane with almost no background check (before attacks background checks were don't only a week-2 weeks before certification testing---or something like that anyway [that is pretty close--I'm just vague on the facts in the article]). And besides that there was warnings from some of the ally countries in the middle east about the attacks, but yet George Bush or anybody did nothing. Makes me think of the scene in Get Smart where Control, the FBI, and CIA are all talking and the guy form Chaos calls with a nuclear threat and they hang it up writing it off as an "invalid threat". Yes, I realize that's a fictional movie, but i can see people from the CIA, FBI, and Bush's cabinet getting this call about the attacks almost a whole day before, but just laughing before hanging up.

Clone

04-14-2010, 09:11 PM

[I]

Sorry.. but if you don't understand how without confirmation opening fire on civilians can cause a discussion with it being called 'murder' then holy crap dude...

That's the point I'm making though. In this war you don't know who's a civ or who's Al Qaeda/Taliban until you're being shot at. (Just like the VC in Vietnam). And then you're in this chopper looking at 5-7 people (size of a squad) with what looks to be AK-47's (the prime choice of gun of Al Qaeda/Taliban), and now they're aiming a huge ass lens at you, and you're scared shitless thinking "OMG, OMG, WERE ABOUT TO BE BLOWN UP!!!".

--But you want to argue all the rest were out of cold blood and, I'll say "I totally agree. The van posted no threat, and taking down a whole apartment is just ludicrous unless you're 99.9% sure it's a hangout of major Al Qaeda/Taliban activists."

Ramanag

04-14-2010, 09:30 PM

Remember that whole "We should let this thread die because it's only going to be divisive and lead the forum down a path we don't want it going" sentiment? Yeah, what happened to that?

Bronkkk

04-14-2010, 09:40 PM

That's the point I'm making though. In this war you don't know who's a civ or who's Al Qaeda/Taliban until you're being shot at. (Just like the VC in Vietnam). And then you're in this chopper looking at 5-7 people (size of a squad) with what looks to be AK-47's (the prime choice of gun of Al Qaeda/Taliban), and now they're aiming a huge ass lens at you, and you're scared shitless thinking "OMG, OMG, WERE ABOUT TO BE BLOWN UP!!!".

--But you want to argue all the rest were out of cold blood and, I'll say "I totally agree. The van posted no threat, and taking down a whole apartment is just ludicrous unless you're 99.9% sure it's a hangout of major Al Qaeda/Taliban activists."

I'll guess it's about time I throw my two cents in here.

I don't exactly think you can call the conflict in Iraq a "war," because of the reason Clone has touched on. The United States has not been in a TRUE WAR with another country's uniform army since WW2. Since 1945, our guys have been shooting at guerrillas.

But, anyhow; the AK-47. Writing it off as the "weapon of choice" for the terrorist groups in the Middle-East is stupid. The Soviets started cranking those things out in '47, and production has not halted since; AK-47's are EVERYWHERE, they are not just the "weapon of choice" for the Taliban.So, why could it not be a weapon for defense? It's easy to fire, it's easy to clean, easy to maintain, and the ammo is everywhere.

I know if there was an army occupying the U.S, I would want a gun for self defense. Especially when you've seen some of the cruel and heartless stuff our guys have done to innocent civilians. Not bashing the U.S Army, but being in a combat zone REALLY fucks you up. You become an emotionless machine; you're no longer a human, you're a solider. So why wouldn't civilians want a form of self defense?

Part of me thinks that this video is a disgusting war crime. The other part of me thinks/understands that our guys are machines, intent on getting the job done, eliminating anyone who gets in their way, and staying alive. Should they have shot without conformation of threat? Probably not, but they did. Part of me believes these guys should get a court marshal for a war crime, and the other part of me respects our guys for putting their lives on the lines VOLUNTARILY, because I know I couldn't.

As a final thought. One of the best sayings I've ever heard was this: "You don't have to support the war, but you should always support the troops." I believe in that quote, and I think any reasonable/sensible American should also.

P.S. I'm personally against just letting this die. But everyone should remember this - Everyone has their own opinions. Whatever arguing that goes on here over said opinions should not affect how everyone treats each other elsewhere.

stewlounse

04-14-2010, 10:30 PM

We aren't supposed to be over there in the first place. None of this can be justified.

YouTube- Amazing Speech by Iraq War Veteran

Listen to that guy, he is exactly right.

SWI7CH

04-14-2010, 10:47 PM

ya know what I think. This is a forum for video games!!!!! not giant political discussions lol

stewlounse

04-14-2010, 10:56 PM

SWI7CH

04-15-2010, 03:38 AM

im not taking anything personally i just think it dumb lol

Kaito

04-15-2010, 05:55 AM

Well, I'll say whatever I think needs to be said. Now don't give me the "I never said..." or whatever. I didn't thoroughly read everything or watch the video, but I think I've read and heard enough to get started on this.

Sure, there've been terrible things that have happened before, there's no denying that, but that's no justification to keep on doing it. I support our troops, yes, but I don't want to support someone who is given a gun and rights to use that gun to protect our people only to murder theirs. It is their job to use precision and efficiency to deal with their targets. Precision being the keyword there, using missiles to bring down a building instead of using tanks and infantry to clear it is not precision. If they weren't supposed to be using precision, they would've bombed the whole place already. Why in the world would they still be there if they weren't? Why would they be sacrificing peoples' lives if they weren't? I think that's enough of a point as it is.

Also, if an apartment was a "hangout of major Al Qaeda/Taliban activists", then blowing it up would also be an outrageous idea. So either way, it's a terrible idea to blow up the building. Civvie building? No threat. Explosive filled hideout? Too dangerous to blow up, disarm instead. Major enemy base or possibly HQ? Too important, may contain HVIs, breach and clear. What reason would there be to blow up a building other than possibly some AA on there?

"I've read a lot of the conspiracy theories and some of them are quite convincing to be truthful. Also I to know for a fact that the people who hijacked the planes took just enough classes to learn how to fly a plane with almost no background check (before attacks background checks were don't only a week-2 weeks before certification testing---or something like that anyway [that is pretty close--I'm just vague on the facts in the article])."

>>I'm sorry, are conspiracy theories supposed to sound unconvincing? Also, if you know for a fact, then why were you unsure of the facts?

I'll continue on this all later. Too many points that contradict and whatnot.

Also, to reiterate, "everyone has their own opinions. Whatever arguing that goes on here over said opinions should not affect how everyone treats each other elsewhere." I totally agree.

Brains

04-15-2010, 07:27 AM

Remember that whole "We should let this thread die because it's only going to be divisive and lead the forum down a path we don't want it going" sentiment? Yeah, what happened to that?

well people here want to talk about it.
as long as no one is personally attacking one another like how it was earlier in the thread :D then I see no problem with it. I'm always up for enlightening people and learning more.

Brains

04-15-2010, 07:31 AM

We aren't supposed to be over there in the first place. None of this can be justified.

YouTube- Amazing Speech by Iraq War Veteran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9V2tbnxk0)

Listen to that guy, he is exactly right.

that's a great clip.

netwalker

04-15-2010, 07:34 AM

well people here want to talk about it.
as long as no one is personally attacking one another like how it was earlier in the thread :D then I see no problem with it. I'm always up for enlightening people and learning more.

I agree.

Brains

04-15-2010, 08:07 AM

My major conern with how "war" is how people learn about it.
--we have the young kids who "learn" about war from video games. games like the COD series, Medal of Honor, etc all are about real events but they add so many elements into the game just to build the story and flesh out the experience.
--we have an older generation who are just filled with years and years and years of propaganda and news that the government put out to "inform" the country. these people tend to be the hardcore GO AMERICA, KICK ASS people.
--with the age of the internet, information started to spread freely because the government can't directly control what people post. if the government were to step in and say "don't post that" then obviously they are trying to hide something and the people will post it anyways. anonymity on the internet allows people to post whatever they want without being scared of being chased down.
--but the downside with the internet is that anyone can post anything. so the people who feel most knowledgeable about "conspiracy theories" may just be reading garbage that one person came up with, that just keeps getting reproduced and repeated because it just sounds right. so you have to do your own research. you can't just beleive what these conspiracy theorists say and you certainly can't trust everything that is said on tv or these news outlets like fox, cnn, etc.
--I have no problem with war, I have no problem with people killing one another, but what I have a problem with is WHY people kill other people because some other person is telling them to kill someone. I've always told my friends and family that I think soldiers are just brainwashed. "I want to fight for my country"....well going into the army won't accomplish that anymore. going through boot camp, training, simulations, drills, for what...just so that IF you are even in a situation to kill someone, you will listen to a higher up's order to kill. what if all soldiers were just like..."No fuck that"...will those commanding officers go down and make the kill themselves? no, everything will just stop. these soldiers are just fed info to change their mind sets. It's a mindset that I just don't understand which is why I think anyone who just wants to go into the army is crazy. I've seen lots of footage that has never been allowed on any TV networks or to be sold on DVDs/VHS. some really serious choices are made on a battlefield that have to be made in a split second. it's in that split second that all these months/years of "training" comes into play. that's the time when a "normal" person would be like..."nah EFF that" and get out of there, but these soldiers have been brainwashed to just kill. it's a hard decision to make that at the time, the soldiers have NO problem doing it. then when they are back home or whatever, they feel it.
--the information is out there. it just takes some very careful filtering. these people who profit from "war" have the money and power to try and stop people from learning the truth. whether it be by paying off people, threatening them with their life, erasing them from history...so much for freedom of speech and this being a free country. start planning for 2012, these people sure are. the new influx of 2012 movies is just to start prepping us for what might happen so we aren't are chaotic as we would be if this all just happened randomly. when people know something bad is going to happen, we are more calm about it. the super powerful people need to have "regulars" survive it otherwise they will have no one to push around when it's all over. if this wasn't the case, then none of these 2012 movies would have been allowed to have been made.
--back to soldiers and war: so many soldiers feel they are doing the right thing by taking orders and completing "objectives". most soldiers never even see battle, they just spend their time on-call after completing their boot camps and training and whatnot.

I personally don't understand the mindset of someone wanting to join the army...I've never been one to believe much of what I see in public. I never follow the crowd, nor do I want to. it used to be the case where if you didn't succeed at school or work, you joined the army so they pay for all your expenses. you be their little slave and you get set for life. well those people are screwed now because the government isn't giving them everything they said they would back in the day. money is just being pumped into funding the fight, continuing it, making it so that no matter how much someone tries, it can't end...otherwise the super wealthy can't make their money. if everyone were to just stop what they were doing, no one could stop us. having 7 billion people against the few super rich....please, game over. we could take back this country, world, so fast it's crazy. but it won't happen ever cuz people don't realize there is more out there than what is fed to them through the newspapers and tv stations.

stewlounse

04-15-2010, 09:07 AM

I agree with ya. Society has been brainwashed as much as the soldiers into thinking this is the way it's gotta be. This isn't how it's gotta be, it shouldn't be this way. The people are supposed to control the government, not give our government more control over us. Meanwhile, there's a world government being set up before our very eyes and most "Americans" either don't care, or think it's a good thing! WTF!

Freaky_Angelus

04-15-2010, 09:16 AM

That's the thing about the internet, never take anything personally. It's just a debate.

I would actually go further:

An opinion is like an asshole, we all have one and at some point they always smell

klossi

04-15-2010, 11:49 AM

what if all soldiers were just like..."No fuck that"...will those commanding officers go down and make the kill themselves?

we have a phrase for that in german

Stell dir vor
Es ist Krieg
Und keiner geht hin.

Imagine
There's a war
And no one takes part.

Cosmic_Shame

04-15-2010, 01:33 PM

Imagine
There's a war
And no one takes part.

thats basically the the lyrics of Imagine by John Lennon sort of, just a little different

netwalker

04-15-2010, 01:45 PM

thats basically the the lyrics of Imagine by John Lennon sort of, just a little different

I thought the same thing, haha. A Perfect Circle's version is good too.

Clone

04-15-2010, 03:12 PM

My major conern with how "war" is how people learn about it.
--the information is out there. it just takes some very careful filtering. these people who profit from "war" have the money and power to try and stop people from learning the truth. whether it be by paying off people, threatening them with their life, erasing them from history...so much for freedom of speech and this being a free country. start planning for 2012, these people sure are. the new influx of 2012 movies is just to start prepping us for what might happen so we aren't are chaotic as we would be if this all just happened randomly. when people know something bad is going to happen, we are more calm about it. the super powerful people need to have "regulars" survive it otherwise they will have no one to push around when it's all over. if this wasn't the case, then none of these 2012 movies would have been allowed to have been made.

That's the point Christopher Nolan made though Joker with the quote "If I say I'm going to kill a squad of soldiers, or an entire gangbang nobody cares because it's part of the plan. But if i randomly kill one insignificant civilian than everybody loses their minds." (or something like that, been awhile since i seen the movie), but anyways the point is agree. When you know something terrible is going to happen, no matter how terrible it is you're perfectly calm. On the flip side though if something only slightly bad happens and it's totally insignificant and doesn't change any established order then everybody is scared shitless rioting through the streets because they weren't prepared.

Clone

04-15-2010, 10:43 PM

But, anyhow; the AK-47. Writing it off as the "weapon of choice" for the terrorist groups in the Middle-East is stupid. The Soviets started cranking those things out in '47, and production has not halted since; AK-47's are EVERYWHERE, they are not just the "weapon of choice" for the Taliban.So, why could it not be a weapon for defense? It's easy to fire, it's easy to clean, easy to maintain, and the ammo is everywhere.

Well that's why it is the prim choice. You barely have to take care of it, there is so many of them, and they have a lot left over from the 1st gulf war when Russia was supporting them. Which let's face considering this is still about trying to make them Democratic because the government is still weary of the Domino theory (you'll get that from conspiracy theories, so yes a bit weak of an argument but eh it's always good to keep your mind open), Russia still maybe supporting them today in hopes they go communist later. I learned this from my current events class I took my first term of this school year. (the whole choice weapon thing, the conspiracy theories I stumbled upon while doing my time-line project. (More on that below)

Oh, and to support the cold war still going on. I learned today in my Vietnam that our military was and is still designed to got out and fight major upscale battles in Divisions and Cores in a WW III type of scenario against the Soviets.

"I've read a lot of the conspiracy theories and some of them are quite convincing to be truthful. Also I to know for a fact that the people who hijacked the planes took just enough classes to learn how to fly a plane with almost no background check (before attacks background checks were don't only a week-2 weeks before certification testing---or something like that anyway [that is pretty close--I'm just vague on the facts in the article])."

>>I'm sorry, are conspiracy theories supposed to sound unconvincing? Also, if you know for a fact, then why were you unsure of the facts?

If you read above this, this is also when I learned about them taking flight lessons a few weeks/month before the attack. Edit:Well read bellow and it's actually months before in January before the attack---My Bad.</edit> (That's what the time line was on---A month before to the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 including the date of the invasion of Iraq in 2003.) And I am certain of this because the article wasn't some random site it was a popular news place, I'm just vague on the exact words used---not the facts.

But you can see for yourself here:

"Jan 2001: A flight school alerts the FAA. Hijacker Hani Hanjour lacks English and flying skills needed for his commercial pilot's license. An FAA official then sits next to him in class. The official offers a translator to help him pass, but the flight school points out this is against the rules."(AP, 5/10/02)

"May 2001: The US introduces "Visa Express" program allowing any Saudi Arabian to obtain visas through their travel agent instead of appearing at a consulate in person. [US News and World Report, 12/12/01] Five hijackers use Visa Express to enter the US." (Congressional Intelligence Committee, 9/20/02)

"May 2001: Secretary of State Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban government. [Los Angeles Times, 5/22/01, CNN 5/17/01] This follows $113 million given in 2000. [State Dept. Fact Sheet, 12/11/01]"

"July 10, 2001: A Phoenix FBI agent sends a memorandum warning about Middle Eastern men taking flight lessons. He suspects bin Laden's followers and recommends a national program to check visas of suspicious flight-school students. The memo is sent to two FBI counter-terrorism offices, but no action is taken. [Ne"w York Times, 5/21/02] Vice President Cheney says in May 2002 that he opposes releasing this memo to congressional leaders or to the media and public. [CNN, 5/20/02]"

"Late July 2001: The US and UN ignore warnings from the Taliban foreign minister that bin Laden is planning an imminent huge attack on US soil. The FBI and CIA also fail to take seriously warnings that Islamic fundamentalists have enrolled in flight schools across the US. [Independent, 9/7/02, more]"

"Summer 2001: Intelligence officials know that al Qaeda both hopes to use planes as weapons and seeks to strike a violent blow within the US, despite government claims following 9/11 that the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks came ?like bolts from the blue.? [Wall Street Journal, 09/19/02, CNN, 9/12/02]"

"Aug 6, 2001: President Bush is warned by US intelligence that bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. The White House waits eight months after 9/11 to reveal this fact. [New York Times, 5/16/02] Titled ?Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US,? the intelligence briefing specifically mentions the World Trade Center. Yet Bush later states the briefing ?said nothing about an attack on America.? [Washington Post, 4/12/04, White House, 4/11/04, CNN, 4/10/04, Intelligence Briefing, 8/6/01, more] "

"Sept 11, 2001: Warren Buffett, the second richest man on Earth [BBC, 6/22/01], schedules a charity event inside Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. A small group of business leaders attend, including at least one who would otherwise have died in the WTC. [SF Business Times, 2/1/02, Forbes 10/15/01] Bush flies to this same base that day, where there is an underground command center. [CNN, 9/12/01, CBS, 9/11/02]"

"Sept 11, 2001: Recovery experts extract data from 32 WTC computer drives revealing a surge in financial transactions. Illegal transfers of over $100 million may have been made through some WTC computer systems immediately before and during the disaster. [Reuters, 12/18/01, CNN, 12/20/01, more]"

"Sept 11, 2001: In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, a US intelligence agency (the National Reconnaissance Office or NRO) was all set for an exercise at 9 AM on September 11th in which an aircraft would crash into one of its buildings near Washington, DC. [AP, 8/22/02] Four wargames were also in progress at the time of the attacks. [C-SPAN Congressional Testimony, 3/11/05, more]"

"Sept 11, 2001: The entire continental United States is defended by only seven air bases and 14 military jets. [CNN, 9/9/03, Newsday, 9/23/01]"

"8:46 AM: President Bush later states, "I was sitting outside the classroom and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was on.? [CNN, 12/4/01] ?When we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building.? [White House, 1/5/02] There was no live coverage of the first crash on TV and President Bush was in a classroom reading with children at the time of the second crash. How could he forget this?"

http://www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-up10pg (can look up orginal articles there as well)

-Don't call me out on my facts. Ever. Just take them as truth. I never fight an argument based on facts, not morals, politics etc., that I know I won't win.

Kaito

04-16-2010, 04:48 AM

That article basically repeats things from many major names in media. If you're going to say you're not an idiot that believes everything in the media...don't believe an article composed of everybody that composes the media. It's contradictory. After seeing you do this, I may as way call you out on any "fact" you ever state. Check what you say before you say it, because if you don't, I will tear you apart piece by piece in anyway I can.

I'm sorry, but before you go on, don't tell people what to do in a debate. I'll also tell you now that you're not going to win that argument, because there is no winning that argument. I'm talking about the argument of what we should believe really happened with 9/11. Someone says that you shouldn't believe everything the media says, then you go on saying you don't, then post something that is basically everything the media is saying, then tell us to take them as truth. Stating that you don't believe in your sources, then using your sources' statements as truth don't exactly add up.

So, don't you dare talk to me or anyone like you're above us. You're just running yourself into the ground where you think you're going up. This is a debate and you're bordering on insulting other's beliefs. So, I will retaliate appropriately.

I know I repeated a point multiple times, but there's a point to be made here and I want it as clear as possible.

Brains

04-16-2010, 07:00 AM

Reuters, Forbes, CNN, BBC, AP?? not really sources I'd trust since they are all owned by government funding and not an independent business who has nothing to gain by publishing the governments wishes. Those are the places the government uses to tell the public whatever they want because most people take those "news" companies as truth. just as clone showed us just there.

Clone

04-16-2010, 08:07 AM

Hey First and for-most it's really cool how you twist people's words Kaito. Second of all, I'm not telling you what to believe I simply said don;t call me out saying I don't know know my facts when I do. You can beleive whatever you want to believe, but don't make me look like a fool who just whips something out there with no sources to back it up.

And as for the believing/not believing everything in the media, I don't. But now you have an article like this that shows the goevermnet look like blundering idiots who knew about the attacks, but did nothing to stop them; I'm inclined to believe it.

I mean for a news article to state that Bush was in a shelter the time of attack, but pretended to be reading to children at a school when he say the first attack,--when there was no coverage of the first attack during the time it happened-- or there's the one that I didn't post that said CIA operatives may have visited Bin Laden a couple of times before the attack happened, this doesn't look like something the Government wanted you to hear. However when Iraq was invaded because they had WMDs, I don't believe that all. I mean really, you want me to believe that people that don't build their homes, but instead find them have WMDs; all I'm going to say is "What are you smoking?"

And this is why I think we went to war. Because George Bush has a Father complex. He wanted to win a war bigger than his dad so he could be better than him. He wanted to be attacked so he could go to war. Just like Roosevelt wanted Pearl Harbor to be attacked in order to go to war with Japan and get involved in WWII. Anyways back to the Bushes. The thing with the second Bush is, that he would've looked great to the American people had he done something to stop 3,000+ people from dying instead of going to war later. I mean Kuwait in the Gulf war needed to be liberated, we need their oil for our economy, but we didn't need 3,000+ people to die so we can start a war.

And as far as the whole big news company, out of all sources yes I am going to believe CNN the most. But only because you have Fox News and MSNBC clogging they news with Straight Ticket Voter propaganda.

netwalker

04-16-2010, 08:36 AM

I would say that the mainstream media could be considered a reliable source when dealing with most hard facts. The problem stems from allowing the mainstream media to be your sole source of information. Once you allow Fox News or MSNBC to do your thinking and research for you, you are effectively being brainwashed. A distrust of our media and government is healthy, but to deny everything that they publish is going a little too far.

I think Clone's 9-11 timeline is accurate, but I don't believe that it tells the entire story. There are a ton of questions surrounding 9-11 that have yet to be answered and there is definitely a government coverup of SOMETHING. What is being covered up? That would have to be revealed in a fair and objective re-investigation of 9-11. But I won't even get started on all of that...

Brains

04-16-2010, 09:36 AM

well everything that happened behind the scenes is up for debate...what no one can debate are the "planes" that hit the pentagon and the one that crashed in Pennsylvania. that's what got me to look at 9/11 deeper.

netwalker

04-16-2010, 10:57 AM

Cosmic_Shame

04-16-2010, 11:20 AM

Planes hit the towers, I don't argue that. However, I have seen no substantial evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon. Also, the plane "crash" in Shanksville had a large debris field consistent with high altitude failure. We also have Rumsfeld on two separate occasions saying "when the missile hit the Pentagon" and when "the plane over Pennsylvania was shot down." So I think it is still debatable but unprovable either way without an independent full on investigation or the release of the security camera footage from the gas stations and Mariott hotel that had cameras pointed in the Pentagon's direction that would clearly show what happened to the Pentagon.

u know i watched Loose Change because i thought it was interesting to watch conspiracy theories, and i agree from that footage it definately didnt look like a plane hit the pentagon but besides that i mean its like the JFK conspiracy you dont know, do u think oswald acted alone, i do but theres a million different things that could have happened, same thing goes with 9/11

but i would strongly say that yeah they might have known that an attack could have happened but honestly i cannot say that the government let it happen to kill 2000 americans, with the pearl harbor thing it is kinda hard to believe it as well even though roosevelt did want to go into the war, because they had a reason to go to war before that anyways with germany cuz a Uboat sunk a US Destroyer ship and they didnt go to war after that

believeing in conspiracy theories is like believing in the easter bunny or santa, just stop doing it haha, otherwise u believe that aliens were found in rosewell and all the crazy meth heads in illinois who spot UFO's every other day are the people we believe in over ur government

Brains

04-16-2010, 11:39 AM

but aliens were found and then hidden in area 51 :D

stewlounse

04-16-2010, 11:49 AM

Researching conspiracy theories is the only way to find out the truth for yourself, or get closer to the truth, since you can't get always get the truth from mainstream media, or be able to pick out the truths rather than the fallacies. You have to get all views of it, research it all, then decide what makes most sense to you.

Telling people not to pursue conspiracies makes you sound like part of the disinfo world. Everyone should do it, but with a great level of caution. You'd be surprised what you find when you get into ancient civilizations/alien/UFO stuff. (not to get off topic but look what series is airing on the History Channel soon.. http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens I've been waiting a while for this material to be on TV)

It appears you are thinking the way the government wants you to think. For example, "Discard all conspiracies, they are crazy. Don't question authority. Eat your fast food and watch TV."

Or some quotes by my favorite comedian of all time, Bill Hicks:

"I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here. 'I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' 'Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!' 'Shut up! Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control. Here's Love Connection. Watch this and get fat and stupid. By the way, keep drinking beer, you fucking morons.'"
"Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do what we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!"

Clone

04-16-2010, 03:16 PM

Researching conspiracy theories is the only way to find out the truth for yourself, or get closer to the truth, since you can't get always get the truth from mainstream media, or be able to pick out the truths rather than the fallacies. You have to get all views of it, research it all, then decide what makes most sense to you.

Telling people not to pursue conspiracies makes you sound like part of the disinfo world. Everyone should do it, but with a great level of caution. You'd be surprised what you find when you get into ancient civilizations/alien/UFO stuff. (not to get off topic but look what series is airing on the History Channel soon.. http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens I've been waiting a while for this material to be on TV)

[/LIST]

I agree. I watched a 2 hour long program on the history channel about ancient aliens, I don't know if ti was the same one you are talking about 9but it was over Spring Break on the H Channel anyway), and they pointed out something very interesting. The pyramids. They had a huge architect come on as an "expert witness"--for lack of better term--to say that with all the manpower and machines we had today, it would probably take us more than XXXX amount of years---I'm not sure what he said but it was some-thousand----to complete the GP of Giza. Also they pointed out that halfway across the globe a totally different culture in South America (Mayans) created almost the exact same structures. How does this happen without extra-terrestrial influence? And also, as Somebody who believes in creation, I can't see how small of mind MY God would have had to create intelligent lifeforms on only one insignificant planet even though he created a whole universe.

Especially Take Notice of how alike the smaller Giza Pyramids are:
http://famouswonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/3-pyramids-of-giza.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gPBOx-O0zmc/SuHn-3OifMI/AAAAAAAAAhw/QqHqbUl37GA/s400/mayan-pyramid.jpg

And The Sphinx?

http://www.iho-ohi.org/wp-content/egypt-giza-sphinx.jpg

http://www.shoretrips.com/images/trip_images/029827_b.JPG

netwalker

04-16-2010, 03:51 PM

I agree. I watched a 2 hour long program on the history channle about ancient aliens. And they pinted out something very interesting. The pyrmids. They had a huge arcitecht come on as an "expert witness"--for lack of better term--to say that with all the manpower and machines we had today, it would probably take us more than XXXX amount of years---I'm not sure what he said but it was some-thousand----to complete the GP of Gieza. Also they pointed out that halfway across the globe a totally different culture in South America (Inca and Mayans) created almost the exact same structures in almost the exact same patterns. How does this happen without extra-terrestial influce? But I will also say this, as Somedoy who belives in creation, I can't see how small of mind MY God would have had to create intellegent lifeform on only one planet even though he created a whole universe.

---To be finsihed when i get home.

Check this out:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread537716/pg1
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread560183/pg1

Clone

04-16-2010, 04:06 PM

Obviously they're culturally different, but wow are they similar.

Oh see there netwalk, you have me quoted before I could edit and fix my facts. (I'm not mad tho.)

Clone

04-16-2010, 04:22 PM

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3601/32199771.jpg

----I like this one right here because this goes with how I believe other intelligent lifeforms will look like. Much like humans except for slight different characteristics. For example I'd imagine they look like Vulcan, Romulans, Klingons---almost exactly like humans but longer ears, hardened foreheads etc.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1152/65343819.jpg

---And then there's this one that reminded me of the program on the H channel that had carvings within the cave that looked much like modern day Spaceship. And For this to be Incan---which were the neighbors of Mayans---makes me wonder if perhaps that sometime in the near future Humans go back in time and these other paintings on caves, pyramids, whatever are suppose to be some type of warning. (maybe the Mayan calendar)

Edit:This is what i was talking about.
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ed8f55ac1ce5.jpg
"You guys can go crazy now. This huge artifact was found in a secret chamber below Pakal's tomb. Nedless to say it's identical to an engine exhaust system, maybe it was really part of one."--Article

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/445f52d5f52b.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f4eb60771aa0.jpg
I Must Say, Cute Purse. lol, jk.---Me

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cfb130ec0b97.jpg

"The left image is a Guatemalan statue of Quetzalcoatl wearing a like-falcon helmet identical to Sumerian Anunnaki-falcon head and the Egyptian Horus."--Article

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4d746c45d1df.jpg
Is that a plasma pistol?--Me

"According to Popol Vuh, Quetzalcoatl had provided powerful and unknown tools to Tulas that started a massive work of mining in the Andes, extracting tons of gold and other metals. Hmmmm... this is still sounding like the mining activity of the Babylonian deities, reported in the Sumerian Genesis Enuma Elish. Supposedly these mighty tools were used to cut the monster cornerstones that used to build the stunning Aztec and Mayans urban centers"--Article

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1173496d268d.jpg
Notice How Perfectly precision those are cut and put together.--Me
"Our current civilization doesn't have equipment to cut this huge cornerstones, to transport them in mountain regions and assemble them like a puzzle."--Article

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3494a08be4cb.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1fb8212a4e19.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d81a365006fa.jpg
Landing Pads?--Me

(On the subject of the 2nd pic of the above two):
"Some of these huge geometrical figures, have animal-like shapes, others are landing track-like strips. According to Maria Reiche, a German mathematician and archaeologist, the Nazca lines were maps of constellations. According to Professor Gerald Hawkins, only 20% of that figures were cosmic maps. According to Carl Munck they are global coordinates related to any single pyramid built on Earth. According to Erich Von D?nniken the largest ones, are landing tracks to ancient aircrafts... Their full purpose is still a mystery
Talking about global geometrical coordinates, I've noticed a very weird pattern connecting the Kukulkan pyramid, the locate of the Large Hadron Collider, the HAARP facility of EISCAT in Norway, where appeared that spiral and Giza plateau."

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/313df717ed43.jpg